Peakah's Provocations...

Unfortunately Real Men are not showcased in our media as heros or honorable people anymore.

It's the nutbars and the fruitcakes who are defining what "Male" is... (see previous post!!)

Regardless, I have such a hard time believing that there weren't men in the gathered crowds that didn't do something.

That leads to the assumption that they couldn't and that this was a State sanctioned event, which infuriates me even more. Allowing these rascist zealots to spew their hatred with police backing them up makes me want to vomit.

I don't know what's wrong with our Country... has it already been lost?

WOW Jen H… America is great that someone can say something and have another person disagree with it, again and again. I am not an author so I haven’t learned how to express what I feel to screen or paper. You said “this kind of blind hatred” I do not hate the people that flew the planes on 9-11, I do not hate the people that are walking on and ripping the flag. I am angry with them, for killing innocent people. I am angry for disgracing the symbol my step Father fought for in Korea. I am angry with our government that makes policy that make people want to hurt Americans. I angry how the media makes Americans feel bad about being American, were not better than anyone or at least I am not. But why can’t I have pride for America? Muslims have killed a lot of people mainly Christians because they do not believe the same. I am glad that people can come to America and protest, that is what men fought and died for so we can have that freedom to say we dislike something or not. I am glad that people can come up through our southern boarder to make a better life for themselves, I just wish they would do it the right way, and become an American citizen, and learn the language. I do not know what I would do if I walked by and saw someone doing that to the flag, right or wrong I would feel better knowing I did something rather than doing nothing.
Nate

Nate, what you are saying now sounds a lot different than your rather nasty statements earlier.

I don't disagree with much of what you've recently posted. What bothers me is when people do things like call the Koran stupid, etc, as if an entire population is awful. I always try to really look at things from many perspectives and be fair to all sides, no matter my country of origin. What you were saying was starting to sound a lot like hate speech. That freaks me out.

I don't know you...perhaps you become dramatic and go a little too far when you're really ticked off, but that was what I heard, personally.

My wife calls me a “Reactor” and I guess that is a good description of me. I am not an author so I have a hard time expressing how I feel; I am a thinker so if I wait just a moment and think about what I should say it comes out better.
Jen you said “I always try to really look at things from many perspectives and be fair to all sides” I wish the media would be that way more than they are, and it seams like we as America has to change everything for everyone, first our language, then we come up with new procedures for their Koran. If they had captured an American solider would they treat the Holy Bible the same way they want their Koran treated?
I do not think their Koran is stupid, it’s their road map sort of speak, the same as my Bible is for me. I think what they are doing is stupid, and when I say “They” that is a broad label (for lack of a better word). From terrorist to the media to even our Government, but I am thankful that I live in a country that I can say things and have people misunderstand them, without fear of you shooting me because you disagree. That was a joke Jen.

Nate

I knew there was a reason I put the word 'Provocations' in my blog title!

I love debate and hearing as many sides of the story as I can muster.

But I do have to throw this in to the mix. Have you read the Koran? It is a hate filled rip off of the Jewish historical record that is the Old Testament.

I know there are a billion people on this Earth that proclaim to follow it but thankfully there aren't that many of those people who actually do follow it. If you had read it or its history you would know what I'm talking about.

An excellent expose in novel form about the Koran is a book called "Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie.

I know that it's one man's opinion but read the Koran yourself if you want to know the true Spirit of the book and see for yourself. I read much of it after 9/11 to understand the enemy. I feel that I understand them well. It's not good news.

Thanks for the debate you two.
Keep up the good work!

That is a good point. Even in ancient time a good army would learn about it’s advisory before they would go to battle.
I will admit I haven’t read the Koran, I have heard though it was laced with hate comments or directions for the user. I do not doubt what you said “It is a hate filled rip off of the Jewish historical record that is the Old Testament.” I have always believed that this stems from Abraham disobeying God. His first child with his made servant grew to become the Arab nation they have always hated Israel because there birthright was stolen; because Abraham disobeyed God. I also know (although I do not know where it is in the bible) that God spoke to the made servant and promised that her childes decedents would be very numerous.

This may be an odd question? So I guess it is safe to say I can find a Koran in English? And are they at the local bookstores?
Nate

Hi,
This is for Josh in reference to his comment about the Koran being a "Hate filled rip."
I'm going to try and break this down as best I can so let's start with the book itself. The overwhelming message in the Koran is one of peace. To be honest, it parallels our (I say 'our' because I consider myself a Christian) bible pretty closely. Peace, love, respect each other, basically the same beat, just a slightly different song. Heck, tha Koran even gives props to Jesus.
As far as the hate filled rhetoric that can be found inside it's covers, well anything can be twisted into anything when your speaking in metaphors. I'm not looking to take cheap shots at the Holy Bible, but it's been used as a corner stone for many of the world's truly evil people. Hitler's foot soldiers were issued belts with the cross on the buckle, because he thought the destruction of anyone who wasn't part of his master race, was his charge from a Christian God. The Ku Klux Klan justifies it's general hatred for all non-whites by twisting a verse in the bible where in Adam and Eve blush when they gain the knowledge of their nakedness. Their rational being that Black people don't blush, and therefore, should not be considered among God's children. I could go on and on and bring up well known cases in which our Bible has been used for malice, discrimnation, and all kinds of evil deeds.
The books (Bible, Koran, Torah, whatever) are not the problems here. Evil individuals are.
Look, I know I'm not exactly breaking new ground here, but when people just start hating an entire group of people on a wholesale level, based solely on the fact that they happen to be of the same race, relgion, creed or color, as a few truly evil people, I feel someone has to stand up and say that tha kind of thinking is backwards and wrong.
Josh, from what my wife has told me, you're a pretty decent guy. I would like to think that someone like you couldn't be capable of the kind of simple minded bigotry that has been expoused on your sight. But for you to sit there and say these kind of things I am left with no other recourse than to believe you to be that kind of evil person I've just describe.
I also hoped that your only venue for exploring the Koran isn't the "Satanic Verses." Mr. Rushdie came from an extremely militant form of Islam in Iran. That is only one angle out of a million. If you really want to learn about your so called enemy, why don't you seek out a Muslim Imam, or anyone who believes in the mainstream form of Islam practiced by most of it's believer's. Maybe then you may start to realize that they're trying for peace, love and understanding just like you.
I guess what I'm trying to get to in a very, very, long-winded way is this, If you're going to hate someone for the awful atrocities levied against humanity in the name of Islam, hate the individuals who perpetrated those acts, and for that matter anyone who is in favr of those kind of things. That all well and good. But try to keep your hate focused on those INDIVIDUALS, and not the vast majority of good, God fearing folks just trying to get a little understanding out of life.
Thanks in advance for reading and actually trying to understand what I've written.

Touche' Matt.

You are correct in the statement that the evil resides with the person rather than the Book. That is undoubtedly true.

Anyone who knows me in real life knows that I'm extremely fairminded and not bigoted in the least. It's very difficult to break down multi-dimentional concepts into simple one-dimentional prose posted on the internet but this I do know...

The bulk of the Koran was ripped off of the scriptural scrolls written by the Jews who received their revelation directly from Heavenly Father Himself. There were portions altered to fit the political times of warfare and military domination. This in my mind is just fact. If that makes me a bigot then so be it.

Muhammad claimed that he wrote it as spoken directly to him by Allah but careful analysis and historical perspective has shown that Muhammad was a warrior bent on converting or killing the entire world. He was a warrior who used the mingling of Old Testament scriptural passages to spark other's spirits with his personal quest to dominate the Earth with his 'message' from Allah. I realize that this concept is a source of severe debate but these are the facts as I see them. Muhammad's legacy is still manifest everynight on the news.

I do not think that anyone who studies the Koran and employs the True Spirit of God's word is evil. The Spirit of God manifests itself through all perceptions, readings, experiences if looked for and accepted.

I'm speaking of those who take the portions of the Koran (which are probably more than you'd like to admit) and use those portions to justify the killing of 'infidels'.

Surely there are passages of the Old Testament that have been used for the same means but at least the Christian Religion has undergone several reformations that have denounced these misuses. Where are the reforms in Islam? Where is the public denounciation of their misuses of scripture. They are few and far between because the Heart of Islam is world domination. It's the basic premise of the religion.

The fact that I acknowledge the fact that these portions exist and are employed by perhaps millions of people who threaten the way of life of millions of peaceful people does not make me bigoted. It makes me realistic.

We are facing a tremendous and numerous enemy who are using these words as their justification to behead and torture innocent people and that pisses me off.

When I saw those boneheads dancing in the street while they ripped our Flag to shreds were they beheaded or taken in front of some religious tribunal for sentencing? Of course not, we live in a free country with due process.

Guess what, if this happened in pretty much any other country, ESPECIALLY an Islamic country, there would be hell to pay. I reserve my right to be pissed off when I see these A-holes taking advantage of their freedoms and pissing on the graves of those who preserved those freedoms for these vermin. ('these vermin' refers to those who ignorantly took the time to dance around when the WTC were falling, who tore our flag apart in a street of NYC)

We're a benevolent nation who has raised the standard of living, raised the level of education, bettered medicine, technology, so on and so forth for all of mankind all around this Earth yet we are the consistent source of condemnation for those who have hatred raging in their hearts.

You want to accuse me of hate? I'm not the one exhibiting it on the streets disturbing the peace. I am just a man with an opinion, peacefully expressing it, inciting no violence.

How is it that I'm the one accused of Hate by the peaceful expression of my opinion when you have idiots beheading innocent people and inciting violence by shouting hate speech in the streets of NYC? Are they not guilty of True hate...

Ok, I admit, if I were there I'd probably have boiling anger and may have done something stupid, you know what, I'd be punished for it too. I pray for these ignoramouses who preach and teach hatred to their fellow man. I pray that they will not continue to take for granted the greatness of this nation.

If I'm guilty of anything, it's hurt feelings, surely that's not violent.

Apparently it is unavoidable. I can live with that... provided deeper contemplation of our situation and context is the result.

It's good hearing from you Matt, I've heard nothing but good things and hope all is well... give your Wife my best.

Josh,
Hate does not just manifest itself in a physical sense. Segregation, the initial start of the third riech, the justfication American Manifest Dynasty and it's subsequent destruction of many native cultures all originated as just quiet thoughts of probably noble men.
Just to clear things up, I'm not here to play colmes to your Hannity. I would not consider myself liberal at all. If anything I'm probably a little right of center. I believe in the ideal of America more than most, because my mom is an immigrant (legal)from central america and has imparted the greatness of this Nation on all her children.
I do believe in defending America against all threats, but it's the Holy war/Intafada tone in your posts that concerns me.
Look, I understand the rage that you felt when creatins were dancing in the street as our fellow countrymen were incinerated on the horrible day. I'll admit that I felt hatred in my heart for those who would even think of snuffing of the one great light in this world that is our great nation, but, and this is a huge but, I managed to focus my hate on actual threats, not just the potential threats.
I believe that we must be ready to fight to the death with our enemies, but if we can stop then from becoming our enemies in the first place, I think that might be a better way.
I'm not proposing that America should compromise it's values (i.e: Human, civil, gender rights)but we should try hard to show folks in what may be considered to be the darker corners in this world to see the light.
If we are the great nation I know we are, then we should lead the way to peace, not do as Toby Keith claims is the American way.
Again, and I can't stress this enough, I do believe in America having a strong Military pressence in the world, I just think that we should try to educate the not-so-free world more and intimidate it less.
The bible states that it is not our job to do the judging in the end, someone else called dibs on that job first. (And yes, this makes me a bit of a hypocrit because I'm judging you as somewhat hateful towards a group of people that both you or I barely know, but I'll take that shot because at least I'm doing it on a person by person basis.)

Matt, I have to disclose my total appreciation for our civil debate and discourse and acknowledge your point of view which is just as valid as mine.

In the spirit of thankfulness I express my thanks to you and the energy you've put into your responses.

My heart breaks continuously when I see the utter ignorance of those around me to the unfolding of history in front of us and the complete disregard of the importance of the times we live in.

All too often people are completely immersed in the shallow entertainment that takes up all their life energy that could be spent attempting to make this a better world.

Surely I'm guilty of this indightment nevertheless I express my gratitude for your passion on this subject... a passion that rivals mine! *grin*

Unfortunately this Infatada was not started by me or my comments on this matter. Obviously however, I've chosen sides, not out of hatred, but out of survival and the survival of my posterity and our Country which I hope stands as a beacon of hope; the 'shining city on the hill' as eloquently put by the great Ronald Reagan, so that all Spirits existing on this temporal physical plane can achieve their individual greatness.

Is this country the only place where that greatness can be achieved? Of course not. Is Christianity the only means to the Heavenly Kingdom in our next life? Well, that's a whole other thread to take some other night...

Regardless, I appreciate your thoughts and hope to hear from you more, I've truly enjoyed our interaction.